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 Shrinathji's pragatya
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Shyamrai
Entry Level Member


19 Posts
Posted - 17 September 2007 :  16:27:18
I have a question regarding the pragatya of Shrinathji, there is some conflicting stories on the net from the gaudiya vaishnavs.

They claim that Shrinathji was discovered and first worshipped by Madhvendra Puri on Shri Giriraji in 1479.

We acknowledge that SM wasnt the first to do seva and it was the vrajvasi's but that SM was the first to offer proper seva. In our tradition we believe the seva was given to MP by SM as a guru dakshina.

The gaudiyas also claim that SM didnt do seva of Shrinathji and that the seva was given direct to Shri Vithalnathji by Raghunath das a devotee of Chaitanya. This is obviously not true because all vaishnav scholars regard the Madhurashtakam as genius and it wouldnt have happened if SM hadnt done Shriji's seva.

In our tradition we do acknowledge that after the building of the temple the guadiyas were put in charge and that SV asked them to leave in place of some Gujarati Brahmins. RD lived from 1494-1583 so is is plausable that he was the bengali vaishnav put in charge and then asked to leave. They claim that SV took the temple and seva with force by setting the gaudiya houses on fire and when they went to put them out they were not allowed back in the temple.

My question is about the historical truth of Shrinathji's pragatya and what evidence is there of times and places because even the place of the pragatiya is disputed. If there is more evidence for our tradtion then i'm sure we can get the gaudiya tradition to ackowledge the truth even if it means going to court to protect our heritage from the lies and the derogatory statements they make about our tradtion and founder SM.

Are there any vaishnavs that have studied both traditions to establish the historical truth???

Edited by - Shyamrai on 17 September 2007 16:47:06

Edited by - Shyamrai on 17 September 2007 18:01:30

shreekant22
PRO - Pushtikul.com / P.E.M. January 2004


1853 Posts
Posted - 19 September 2007 :  15:01:04

Jai Shree Krishna

The vrajvasis did not do seva, but only offered samagri to the pragatya swaroop of Shree Govardhan dharan.

Shree Mahaprabhuji, after the pratham milan with Shreeji bawa,  upon the request of Shree Thakorji himself, esablished the seva Prakar of Shreenathji. The Vrajvasis, were reluctant to take the responcibilit of seva, and hence the bengali brahmins (Not necesarily the Gaudiyas) were appointed to carry out the seva of ShreeThakorji.

However, as they started worshipping their devi too side by side Shree Govardhannathji,  Shree Krishnadas adhikariji removed them form seva.

The Gaudiyas are the followers of Shree Chaitanya prabhu.

The biggest fact that Shree Govardhannathji himself wished to be worshipped as Pushtiswaroop can be understood form the fact the Prabhu himself anounced his arrival atop Shree Girirajji to Shree Mahaprabhuji. Shree Thakorji and Shree Mahaprabhuji embraced each other through mutual two sided advancements. And the fact that Shree Thakorji himself has done innumerable leelas with the Vallabh vanshaj, the ashtasakhas, and many Bhagwadiyas is in itself proof enough to show that  it was devine wish and nobody played politics.

Shree Prabhu is Kartum, Akartum and Anyatha kartum, he decides what, whom, where, when etc. not anybody else.

 



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Shyamrai
Entry Level Member


19 Posts
Posted - 19 September 2007 :  17:13:30
I understand that Shri Thakorji chose the pushti path to worship him but the Gaudiyas say that Madhvendra Puri discovered Shrinathji in 1479 and established his seva...the date is consistant with the pragatya of Shri Mahaprabhuji and the appeareance of Shrinathji's mukharvinda so there maybe some truth in their claim. In our history i have read that Madhvendra puri taught SM at an early age so this would have been around 1485 so SM couldn't have told Madhvendra puri to go to vraj to establish the seva because MP would have already established it. Madhvendra Puri went into lila in 1491. In 1493 is when SM came to Vraj to formally install the worship of Shrinathji. In our tradition it says the temple of Shrinathji was built between 1499 - 1519 then MP was put into seva by SM. http://pushtisampraday.tripod.com/three.html This would not have been possible. The bengali vaishnavs must refer to Raghunathdas Goswami who was asked to leave by Shri Vithalnathji in around 1540 after taking over the gadi from Shri Gopinathji. There is an definate discrepency there. I dont mean to argue but i am looking at it from a historical point of view rather than a religious one. The gaudiyas do make some outragous claims however. They claim SM came to Chaitanya at Nilacala and took diksa in Kisora-Gopala mantra from Gadadhara pandita. This i find hard to believe purely from a historical and factual perspective. SM was one of the most celebrated scholars of his time, respected all over india with his own philosophy. Why would he have to take any diksha's from someone else from another vaishnav sect?? The gaudiyas make many claims and because of ISKCON their claims are reaching far and wide. We as followers of Shri Mahaprabhuji need to counter these claims and use historical fact to do so. This is the reason for my asking of the questions. Edited by - Shyamrai on 19 September 2007 20:51:05

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manish1
Senior Member


239 Posts
Posted - 20 September 2007 :  18:03:36

Jai Shri Krishna ShyamRaiji,

you have raised a very imp topic and that has come to my mind many times. Even places like Wikipedia etc. have their side of the story.

u have well researched the dates, but few imp points here.

they consider Chaitanya Charitamrta (CC) to be their most imp book and last word.

We consider 84 Vaishnav Varta (84VV) as most imp pushti book.

both have totally different accounts, but few points from a semi neutral point.

Shrinathji Seva is has been done and still belongs to Vallabhkul, that itself says a lot... whose tradition seva belongs to. plus their other deities like Shri RadhaGopinathji and other imp. deities are still worshipped in Jaipur. I find it hard to believe that they would have given the Swaroop of Shrinathji to SM and then not taken back.

They have much lesser details which you have placed here. But it our 84VV and also Shrinathji Pragatya varta there are much more detailed accounts.

According to Gaudiya Math (GM) and CC, even Shri Mahaprabhuji was proud over Shri Subodhiniji. But bear in mind, every Sampradaya according to them has come from GM either directly or indirectly.

I guess there must be more historicals details, but that perhaps some Jeje might only be able to provide.

The most imp. thing as Shreekantji said in earlier post, we should first ourselves among Pushtimargis spread more knowledge about Shri Mahaprabuji and Shrinathji and these things will be taken care as a result of that..

 

 



Manish 
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Shyamrai
Entry Level Member


19 Posts
Posted - 20 September 2007 :  20:02:23
Very good point Manishbhai, the GM do believe that everything has come from them in some way or another. Even the sampradayas that long preceded them. My problem with them is the lack of respect shown towards Shri Vallabh. They commonly call him just Vallabh Bhatt rather than Vallabhacharya and they dont seem to acknowledge the fact that SM is one of the 5 great acharyas of indian history. They always mention, Shankracharya, Ramanujacharya, Nimbarkacharya and Madhavacharya and when it come to the Rudra vaishnav line they just say Vishnu Swami and hardly mention SM at all. In CC they say that SM was very proud of his works and that Chaitanya was not impressed and would only except the works of Sridhara Swami. SM wrote his Subdhaniji because Sridhara's account was written 'due to circusmtance' both SM and the GM acknowledge this. Sridhara's account was written with too many hidden meanings because he was scared of the muslims of the time so could not make his meanings clear. SM had to explain the true meanings in clear language for all to understand. They claim that the seva was given to SV by Ragunathdas but who in their right mind would give away The Supreme Lord to someone else?!?! I find it hard that they would've given the swaroop away in the first place let alone ask for it back so i fully agree with your point manishbhai. I think our account is far more true with the fact there were not many Pushti Vaishnavs capable of doing temple seva at the time so it is fully plausable to give the seva to established bengalis and to have a Pushti Vaishnav as temple manager. I agree that our varta's Shri Gokulnathji has written are far more concise but as you said there are these different accounts which should be studied. Are there any independant texts confirming when MP went to vraj and when he left this world? That seems to be the sticking point and the cause of the different accounts.

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manish1
Senior Member


239 Posts
Posted - 21 September 2007 :  07:57:37

Jai Shri Krishna,

i have lived near a ISKCON temple for over 3 years and have many many friends from there.

few new vaishnavs from there might have the hardline and thus dont know abt other vaishnav acharyas.

what they think about Shri Mahaprabuji or Shrinathji Bawa makes no difference, as long as we know our side clearly. if asked about it I tell them this what our book says and rather than having the final word on these touchy topics.

if you follow Shri Chaitanya Maharapbhu orders and we follow Shri Mahaprabuji aagya, both will benefit more.

first we should know Shri Vallabh. Not only ISKCON, but many other people dont even know about Shri Mahaprabhuji, but thats perhaps bcoz even young pushtimargis dont know that...

we also call Shri Chaitanya Maharapbhu, only as Krishna Chaitanya, so no point telling all of them are like this. I have seen some senior devotees there, do not mind as long as we do our krishna seva.



Manish 
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govindshah2
Senior Member


154 Posts
Posted - 21 September 2007 :  10:57:57

ShriGokulesho Jayati

   Its really a surprising by Shyamrai that you are atleast not able to honour ShriMahaprabhuji. U r using SM in place of  ShriMahaprabhuji. I request that Please do use ShriMahaprabhuji as a full name and not the abbrevations. Hum to pushtimarg ko itna short karna chahte hai ki ShriMahaprabhuji ka naam likhne mein aalasya aati hai?

    What should we understand by GM, SM, kya hai yeh? Bhaiya koi vishay post karte ho to usko sahi arth mein post karo. And you Manishji u also using CC, 84 VV, what is this? Respect the values. If u had no time to write this words in full, then don't give coments.

    And yes, for knowing the Pragatya Vaarta of ShriMahaprabhuji, we can take the reference of VISHODHANIKA pustaks which is been published in 3 parts by Goswami ShriShyam Manoharji (Parle, Kishangarh).

   And Mr. PRO Shreekantbhai, you all r getting ready to remove the persons, But u being a PRO, can't u just view through this points....



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govindshah2
Senior Member


154 Posts
Posted - 21 September 2007 :  11:07:36

ShriGokulesho Jayati

   Neither Shrinathji was discovered by Madhvendra puri, Nor any Vrajvasis like Sadupandey, etc. This is not the voyage of Columbus that he discovered America. And Shyamraiji if u belong to ShriKrishna Chaitanya's Parampara,  of the Gaudiya Sampraday, then i think this is not the right place for u to pracitice ShriKrishna bhakti. Because this place is of ShriMahaprabhuji and the sampraday is PushtiBhaktimarg.

     During the times of ShriMahaprabhuji, Shrinathji bavashri became the only worshipped Lord by Pushtimargiyas. and the Ancestors of Shrimahaprabhuji. History says that Shrimahaprabhuji was only LIABLE to perform shrinathji's seva. And no others. After that with the permissoin of ShriMahaprabhuji, seva was allowed to do by bengalis (devi Bhakts) but only with permission of shrimahaprabhuji, and not independently. Then after this seva was carried forward by only the ancestor of ShriMahaprabhuji. And no other sampraday acharyas were allowed to perform seva of shrinathji bavashri.



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shreekant22
PRO - Pushtikul.com / P.E.M. January 2004


1853 Posts
Posted - 21 September 2007 :  19:02:17

Jai Shree Krishna

Param bhagvadiya shree Govind bhai, I would like to clarify that we have not removed anybody form this site. Those who left the sight did so on their own free will. This was veryclearly stated by them in this very forum on one of the topics.

As regards to using the words SM, GM etc. yes personally I would never do and have never done such a thing, and do not approve of it. But that does not mean that I can stop anybody from doing such a thing. Many in this site use JSK instead of Jai Shree Krishna, which too I strongly disapprove of.  The reason why I did not raise objection to Shree Shyam bhais usage of such 2 letter representations is that if JSK can be allowed then how can GM, SM etc. be stopped ?

And sice I was holding a responcible position as PRO of the site, I wanted to take some more time to first think it over in detail then post my views.



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Shyamrai
Entry Level Member


19 Posts
Posted - 22 September 2007 :  14:16:47
I apologise if the use of abrreveations has annoyed people. I did it not out of disrespect but purely for speed of typing. As for am i a gaudiya vaishnav...no...i had my bramsabandh in front of Shrinathji by Shri Dauji Maharaj the former tilkiyat. If you had read my posts clearly it would have been clear. The reason why i asked the question was because i look at religion in a way where i am not blinckered by just faith and following everything i am told blindly. Much like many of the young vaishnavs today we ask questions and want answers based in facts. I know over time stories are changed and biased opinions given. I asked the questions to establish a historical truth. There are 2 accounts given for the same story so obviously something is not right so i dont see a problem in asking the question. The reason i asked is because if there are other vaishnavs who have studied this i would be interested in hearing their opinions. This is a forum for what i believed was free exchange of ideas. Not a forum for just one idea and one way of thinking. Edited by - Shyamrai on 22 September 2007 14:23:14

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shreekant22
PRO - Pushtikul.com / P.E.M. January 2004


1853 Posts
Posted - 22 September 2007 :  20:31:39

Jai Shree Krishna

Shyamraiji, we truely appreciate your apology and sincerity.

Wish you all the best of Satsang at Pushtikul.com.

PRO, Pushtikul.com



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