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prakash_kotecha
Junior Member


61 Posts
Posted - 19 June 2009 :  18:27:47
|| Sarvam Krishna Arpanam ||

Jai Shri Krishna

Is it possible for a jeev to get deliverance (get merged with the Lord) without believing in the Lord. I know it is a kind of weird question but I am curious to know.

For example, a person does not hurt anyone and is free from material attachment but does not believe (or say is not aware of Lord Krishna) in God. Can such a soul get deliverance from the life cycle of birth and death? Or is it that this doesnt lead to deliverance but the person gets next birth in which he will have access to the knowledge of God?
sridevi
Entry Level Member


19 Posts
Posted - 20 June 2009 :  16:11:14

Jai shri krishna to all vaishnavs !!

Well !! according to me,it is possible to get merged with the lord ,even though jeev is not belivieng in lord,

And not beliving in lord is only because he is not yet aware of lord,jeev has got some short of rays that

made him activated and all his  material attachments is dismissed,but he does not understand where

the rays came from. ONE DAY he (jeev) he will definately reflect to these rays and then he will star

beliving in lord.  Therefore it all depends upon that jeev how deeply his attachments are discarded and

this way his cycle will go.(eg. There is a day light,it is through rays,but if someone says its day light only

nothing else ,so he is in his own world,but later in life when he will feel the rays say by very hot or his

shadows then automatically he will look up.AND THEN he will realise ,oh its SUN. and these rays were

from sun this way starts beliving in lord.) (hope you get it what you r tring to know.)

jai shri krishna.



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raju somaiya
Entry Level Member


22 Posts
Posted - 22 June 2009 :  16:13:23

Jai Jai Krishana.

First of all I like to say, " to which jeev,  one can say that he belives in god or not ?".

To visit temple daily, to go to Tirth places , to spend money in charity etc..etc.. are outer characteristics , observing to which shall v say that particular person  believes in God. It may be OR it may not be also.

Then, a person who is not even performing the above mentoned activity but is similar by "MAN", "VACHAN" and "KARMA" , God likes that jiv very much.

For such a jiv, even though not beliving in lord, a person in form of GURU will itself find him as his follower and will make him met with Govind.

Moreover, for vaishnav "MUKTI" is not desired as a final aim but "BHAKTI" . In each birth of mankind as a vaishnav to recite "GUNGAN" of lord Sh. Krishana. Through "BHAKTI" to get closer to lord and at last to experience co-presence with lord [ say "PREM-ANAND"].

So, as per me, a jeev who execute truth and similar with MAN, VACHAN & KARMA can definitely get deliverance. if I am I wrong, pl. feel free to correct me.

JSK again.

Rajubhai Somaiya - Rajkot. 

 



R.R. Somaiya.

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shreekant22
PRO - Pushtikul.com / P.E.M. January 2004


1853 Posts
Posted - 05 July 2009 :  11:59:12

Jai Shree Krishna

Such a deliverence is possible if Shree Thakorji decides to do so.

Other wise, as directed and differentiated by Shree Mahaprabhuji, Jeevs are categarised in three main parts and their respective subparts of Pushti, Pravah and Maryada, and will follow their respective traits.



Shree Vallabha dheesh ki jai Go to Top of Page
unnati
Senior Member


224 Posts
Posted - 06 July 2009 :  12:29:15

Jai Jai Shri Gokulesh,

At Catuhsloki Shri Vallabhacharyaji states: 

Prabhuh sarvasamartho hi; tato nishcintatam vrajet. 

 

Meaning: Lord Shri Krishna is omnipotent. Hence, O devotees! Be absolutely free from worries. 

 

Ajamila was wicked and sinful. He had done no good deeds in his life. He had a son named ‘Narayana’ whom he loved very much. Narayana is one of the names of Bhagavan. So, when he lay on his death-bed, he called his son by uttering his name ‘Narayana’, and soon he breathed his last. He was, of course, a sinner but Bhagavan granted him salvation, since he uttered the name of Bhagavan, though on the pretext of his son! 

 

Putana had come just to kill Shri Krishna. Though she was motivated by pretence, she at least wished like a mother to feed Bhagavan with milk from her poisoned breast! For this reason Bhagavan granted her instant deliverance. So bounteous is Lord Shri Krishna! Howsoever sinful a person may be, but if he entreats Bhagavan from the bottom of his heart and say, “O Lord! I have come to take refuge in you. Except you, I have none whom I can call my true kinsman” Bhagavan will certainly give him shelter and take him in his refuge. In ‘Shri Krishnasraya-stotra’ Shri Vallbhacharyaji states:

Papasaktasya dinasya; krsna-eva gatir mama. 

 

Meaning: Happy or unhappy, sinful or sinless, wealthy or poor, source-ful or source-less all should verily take refuge in Shri Krishna.



Shri Vallabha Charan Vina Sharan Koni Jaou.....Shri Vitthala Nam Vina Mantra Kya Thi Paou......Shri Vallabha Charan Vina Sharan Koni Jaou.....

Unnati Kadakia

 

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prakash_kotecha
Junior Member


61 Posts
Posted - 06 July 2009 :  12:39:14
|| Sarvam Krishna Arpanam ||

Jai Shri Krishna !!

Thanks for the beautiful response. This was something that was always troubling me.

Does it mean that a soul can go on doing whatever it wants (just like Putna and Ajamila) but ultimately surrender to Lord Krishna and seek deliverance?

Despite the fact that the Lord delivered Putna, isnt this true that Putna never thought of seeking shelter with the Lord. Neither did Ajamila called out Shri Narayan with his heart. Even in his last breath I think he was refering to his son and not the Lord.

It is really difficult to understand this. May be the problem with me seems to be I try understanding than just accept it.

Regards
Prakash Go to Top of Page
unnati
Senior Member


224 Posts
Posted - 07 July 2009 :  10:17:02

Jai Jai Shri Gokulesh,

Ajamil’s father was Brahmana born, lived in the town of Kannoj, and fathered only one son named Ajamil. Ajamil’s caring parents enrolled him in Gurukula (a supervised traditional Vedic dormitory school), after which they married him to a perfect Brahmana born girl. One day when Ajamil went to the garden to pick flowers for worship he saw a man copulating with a prostitute there. She was young and very beautiful. Ajamil became so attracted to the prostitute that he left his perfectly mannered wife to be with her and they began living together. Whatever the prostitute demanded, Ajamil supplied by stealing from his parents to satisfy her. To obtain Ajamil, the prostitute gave up prostituting herself, but continued eating meat and drinking wine. Ajamil produced ten sons from her, of which he named his youngest Narayana. Due to providence Ajamil loved Narayana very dearly and Narayana reciprocated that love through his charming nature, attracting his father towards him. Ajamil did not have a fixed income and with the household expenses immense, he adopted a life of thievery and robbery. He would steal and rob people, bringing the loot home to maintain the prostitute and his children. He committed many sins and did not atone for any of them. He would daily go to the forest to hunt, steal, and loot travelers, then return home with the bounty and eat meat and drink wine, thus enjoying the company of his children and the prostitute. Living his life in this way, performing sinful deeds, Ajamil became old.

Pariksit Raja asked to Shri Sukhdevji, “Ajamil was a learned Brahmana; how did it occur that he established a relationship with a prostitute?” In answer Shri Sukadevji narrated Ajamil’s previous life. Ajamil was a pious mendicant living in the foothills of the Himalayas. One day, while performing his duties, he drank ice-cold water from a mountain stream from which he became extremely cold and fell unconscious. At that moment a Brahmana walking with his sixteen-year-old daughter arrived there for some water, as well as a doctor. The doctor checked the pulse of the unconscious mendicant and said, “If this mendicant is warmed by the bodily heat from a young woman he will regain consciousness.” The concerned Brahmana was very gentle and innocent and trusted the doctor. Hence, he brought the unconscious mendicant to his house and instructed his daughter to cuddle with the man. Thus, by the bodily heat from the girl, the mendicant regained consciousness, where he found the girl lying with him, which greatly anger him. He then cursed the girl to take birth as a prostitute. The girl was also very religious and possessed spiritual potency and thus cursed the mendicant saying, Because of pride you cursed an innocent person; therefore you will be born in a Vedic Brahmana family and you will keep my association.” This is how Ajamil became connected with the prostitute.

Now because he called out the name Narayana for help at the time of death he did not go to hell to experience the results of his actions. The name of the Lord is so potent that just by pronouncing one of His names all of a person’s sins turn into ashes, just like one matchstick possesses the power to burn a mountain of cotton into ashes.



Shri Vallabha Charan Vina Sharan Koni Jaou.....Shri Vitthala Nam Vina Mantra Kya Thi Paou......Shri Vallabha Charan Vina Sharan Koni Jaou.....

Unnati Kadakia

 

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prakash_kotecha
Junior Member


61 Posts
Posted - 07 July 2009 :  10:45:15
|| Sarvam Krishna Arpanam ||

Jai Shri Krishna

Thank you very much for the story. I was not aware of this story. But my question still remains the same as

Does it mean that a soul can go on doing whatever it wants (just like Putna and Ajamila) but ultimately surrender to Lord Krishna and seek deliverance?

Regards
Prakash Go to Top of Page
unnati
Senior Member


224 Posts
Posted - 07 July 2009 :  11:27:08

Jai jai shri gokulesh,

Sorry prakashji, i had an urgent call n thts the reason i did the partial posting. I had written the story of Ajamil in my previous posting n now have written the story of Putana in this post. I just want u to go through the story once coz u gave the reference of these 2 names.

Ratnamala was the name of king bali's daughter. And in her next birth her name was Putana.

 

Bali had captured the heaven and became the Lord of all the three worlds. During the 100th Ashvamedha Yagna of king bali. Lord Vishnu took the Vaman avatar and demanded the earth measured by three steps. Lord Vamana then transformed his body into a giant form. His first step covered the entire earth, the second step covered the heaven and there was no place to keep the third step. Bali helplessly offered his head for Lord Vishnu to keep his third step, so that he could measure it by his third step. Bali was satisfied that his reputation for benevolence remained intact, though he had lost his whole kingdom that consisted of all the 3 worlds.

 

When Ratnamala saw Lord Vaman she felt like feeding him milk. But seeing him keeping his feet on the head of king Bali she felt like giving a poison to lord vaman.

 

This was her two manorath which lord fulfilled in her next birth.

 

Now when u say, "Does it mean that a soul can go on doing whatever it wants..."

For this i had already replied at Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu & Mahaprabhuji i.e. Brahma as a Material cause of the world assumes any form by His will and for His "LILA" or playful pastimes. In his LILA every object has a purpose to serve His will.



Shri Vallabha Charan Vina Sharan Koni Jaou.....Shri Vitthala Nam Vina Mantra Kya Thi Paou......Shri Vallabha Charan Vina Sharan Koni Jaou.....

Unnati Kadakia

 

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prakash_kotecha
Junior Member


61 Posts
Posted - 07 July 2009 :  11:35:19
|| Sarvam Krishna Arpanam ||

Dear unnatiji,

Thank you very much for the two stories.

From their stories, atleast to me, it seems that their deliverance was also due to their acts in the previous births and not just one final act in this life. This is my inference and I can as well be wrong in it

In his LILA every object has a purpose to serve His will.

Increasingly, it looks to me that we do not have any control and ourselves and it is completely in the hands of the Lord to use as he likes. Under this notion of mine (which can as well be flawed), it appears that even to become a devotee we need the blessing of the Lord.

However, if this is the case then I fail to understand the passage in Shrimad Gita when Lord Krishna says to seek shelter with him. If there is nothing which we can independenly do then going under his shelter or not is also decided by him alone.

Thank you for all the time and efforts that you spend on my topics.

Regards
Prakash Go to Top of Page
unnati
Senior Member


224 Posts
Posted - 07 July 2009 :  12:31:49

Jai jai shri gokulesh,

Shri Mahaprabhuji on the basis of 4 scriptures; i.e. Vedas, Brahma sutras, Bhagavat Gita & Shrimad Bhagwat explained the relation of;


1. Brahman - (God, Parmatma, Isvara)

2. Aatma - (Jiva, Soul, Spirit)
3. Jagat - (Universe)

He says Brahma is Sat, Chit, Anand - meaning existence, consciousness and bliss. Brahma is pure Bliss (Purna Anand) and it has its own form. All the Demi gods worshipped are different manifestations and aspects of the same supreme Brahma. Brahma is truth. Aatma or Jiva is a tiny part of this Brahma element and is separated from Brahma the way sparks are separated from blazing fire. Aatma is a tiny part of Parmatma and not Parmatma Himself because once it enters the Jagat it surrounds itself with ego and illusion in the form of I and Mine. It therefore becomes imperfect by losing its Anand or Bliss. Aatma is Sat and Chit, but since it is not Anand, it is not God. And Bliss can be achieved only by pure devotion towards Brahma.

It is stated about I "ness" and "My Ness" in Shrimad Bhagwad as said by the LORD himself

"Mind alone is held responsible for the bondage and emancipation of the soul. Attached to the objects of the senses, it leads to bondage; however, it develops affinity to the Supreme Person, it brings liberation to the soul. When the mind is purged of its impurities in the form of lust, greed, etc.---which have their root in the sense of I "ness" and Mine "ness"---- and becomes pure, it grows indifferent to pleasure and pain and gets equipoised.

For striving souls there is no blissful road to God Realization like Devotion directed towards the Lord, who is the SOUL of the universe.

To become a devotee definately we need the blessings of lord n thats the reason our pustimarg is said as Path of Grace (Krupa no marg).

And regarding the shelter Shri Mahaprabhuji has also explained it very beautifully in one of his treatise i.e. Shri Krishnashraya Stotram

In this treatise of 11 couplets Shri Mahaprabhuji has adviced the devotees of the path of grace to recite "Shri Krishnashraya Stotram" regularly before Shri Thakorji So that they may attain his Refuge.

There are 3 main things discussed here;

1) Evil influences in the Dark Age:

a) In the Dark Age people have grown extremely hypocritical due to caste, creed, knowledge etc.

b) All holy places have been occupied by out caste parsons and have turned it into sinful places.

c) Holy places like Ganga are disappeared because of wicked people.

d) Even the virtuous people grown bewildered owing to their egoism and are following the vile path to achieve their selfish ends and endeavoring to gain prestige.

e) The Vedic and other hymns have lost its existence due to the ignorance of recitation, meaning and usage.

f) All the performance, Vows etc enunciated in the Vedas are lost due to controversies about scriptures.

So just to get rid out of this evil influences one should take a refuge of Lord Krishna.

2) Why to take Refuge of Lord Krishna:

a) God is not worldly, Akshar Brahma is not full of Bliss this aspect is partially present and only Thakorji (Shri Krishna) has this aspect fully and is considered as Purna Purushottama.

b) Shri Krishna is capable of doing everything so one should take his refuge to get the grace.

3) Praying Shri Krishna with Pure Heart:

a) Wisdom, Patience, Devotion, Wealth etc is not present in me.

b) I’m powerless, Mean-less and full of sin but you are graceful, as you have not seen the sins of King Ajamil and gave him salvation.

c) Therefore, I pray for you so that I can get your Refuge.

I'm really happy to c ur curiosity...



Shri Vallabha Charan Vina Sharan Koni Jaou.....Shri Vitthala Nam Vina Mantra Kya Thi Paou......Shri Vallabha Charan Vina Sharan Koni Jaou.....

Unnati Kadakia

 

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